The Moment You've Been Wating for
Although there's been a nice little debate going on in the comments for this email, I'm going to resond anyway...mostly cuz it's just fun. As I said before, has been quite polite and non-flammatory so I will try to be only a little bit of a jack-ass;-). Since he/she (I'm honestly not sure which our new friend is) has covered quite a many points I'll take them on individually.
Sorry about the delay.
Hey, no problem. I forgive ya. I'm sure all the fans of Freedom Nation do too.
Lets go back to the spanish election. You said that "Polls showed that about 75% (if this is even accurate) of the Spanish people were against the war, yet the socialists only won by about 5%....that doesn't make any sense". I am not sure I understand what you are saying here. But in Europe, citizens are not as divided as people in America.
Most parties belive in the same concepts.
My point was (I should also mention that prior to the bombings in Spain the conservative party held a significant advantage in the polls) that this bombing was the definitive reason for the people electing the socialist party. I still don't understand your point about the people being lied to though. It didn't take long to figure out it wasn't the Spanish terrorist group, and the incumbent government did not try to cover up that fact. The Spanish people capitulated, it's as simple as that. And it didn't even work as Al Queda has announced that Spanish civilians are on the "ok to kill list". So now they have an ultra socialist government who most likely won't do squat to protect it's people, other than to try and appease the terrorists.
All parties want high public healthcare, good schools, social welfare payments that are high enough to live a upon and a society that is fair and equal. Therefore, it is common and normal for people to change their preference on the day of election. An issue such as lying to the citizens for two days before the election could easily swing the voters.
First of all, as an evil cold-hearted capitalist, I'm going to say that I don't see how this is a good thing in any way shape or form. But since it is a point you brought up, here we go. It has proven time and again that socialized healthcare is no better than the American way. In fact, in most cases health care is worse. You can argue, "Well at least they have health coverage". Well let me tell ya. I am married with three children. I have absolutely no health insurance for any of us. You know what happens if we get hurt? We go to the hospital, fill out some paperwork, sometimes pay a little as a "down payment", then we get treated. Actually, we usually get treated while another of us (my wife or myself) takes care of the administrative part. Then after a couple weeks, the hospital sends us a bill, and we pay it. Now, sometimes we can't pay it all at once, but ya know what? They're usually ecstatic that someone is actually going to pay their bill that they are more than happy to work out a payment schedule. As for people changing their minds the day of the election, well to me that's just sad. It's like a scene out of Julias Ceaser (remember Marc Anthony's speech "Friends, Romans, Countrymen..."). What you're saying is that the people there are ready to change their minds based what crap the last "speaker" tells them. It also tells me the people there don't pay any attention to politics until the election actually happens. Then they just go with whomever sounds better the day before.
On the Isreali issue. Before the foundation of the Isreali state, there were Palestinians living there under the protection of the british. Mosts jews had left the country itself and were scattered throughout Europe. But after the second world war they came back to the Isreal and displaced Arabs who previously lived there. That cannot be right.
In your article, you say that the UN gave the land to the isrealis. Here you accept the authority of the UN. Ever since the security council has issued resolutions asking for the isreali army to move back to the borders of 1948. They have not.
This is an example of the damage done by the isrealis. They came along and burnt down the land of the palestinians. On this land they farmed and grow crops. In palestine farming is the only real source of wealth. Therefore those displaced lost not only their land but their sources of income.
These people have no future and no hope in present circumstances. No wonder they strap bombs to themselves and blow themsevles on a bus.
You have one thing right. There was nobody there on the land except displaced arabs. And just how were they being "protected" by the British? You say I am excepting the authority of the UN. I'm not, I'm excepting the fact that Israel has fought hard to be the country they are today ( arguably on of the most powerful in that part of the world) and took a barren piece of land and made a life there. When did they burn the land of the Pal-ass-wipians? If I remember right it was the other way around. You also never responded to my point that the displaced Arabs believe that even if Israel capitulates to ALL of their demands that about 90% of them still believe jihaad should be waged. And that they were already offered virtually 98% of what they wanted and threw it back in Israels' face. Like I said, they exist but for the good graces of Israel, who is completely capable of wiping every one of them out of existance without breaking a sweat. A few points to think about on this issue:
1. Are you aware that the Disputed Territories never belonged to the “Palestinians” and only came into Israeli possession as a result of the 1967 six day war in which Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon all massed forces at Israel’s border in order to “push the Jews into the sea”. The Arabs lost and Israel took control of the land. Do you agree that if the Koranimals don’t want to lose territory to Israel, then they shouldn’t start wars? Do you agree that there is justice that Israel, who as far back as 1948 has always sought peace with her far larger neighbors, should live in prosperity - making the desert bloom - while the residents of 19 adjacent Arab countries who are blessed with far more land as well as oil wealth live in their own feces?
2. Did you know that the “Palestinians” could have had their own country as far back as 1948 had they accepted the UN sponsored partition plan which gave Israel AND the Palestinians a countries of their own on land which Jews had lived on for thousands of years before Mohammed ever had a wet dream about virgins? The Arabs rejected the UN offer and went to war with the infant Israeli nation. The Arabs lost and have been whining about it ever since. Do you agree this is like a murderer who kills his parents and asks for special treatment since he is now an orphan?
3. Can you tell us ANY Arab country which offers Jews the right to be citizens, vote, own property, businesses, be a part of the government or have ANY of the rights which Israeli Arabs enjoy? Any Arab country which gives those rights to Christians? How about to other Arabs? Wouldn’t you just LOVE to be a citizen of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, or Syria?
4. Since as many Jews (approximately 850,000) were kicked out of Arab countries as were Arabs who left present day Israel (despite being literally begged to stay), why should Arabs be permitted to return to Israel if Jews aren’t allowed to set foot in Arab countries? Can you explain why Arabs can worship freely in Israel but Jews would certainly be hung from street lamps after having their intestines devoured by an Arab mob if they so much as entered an Arab country?
5. Israel resettled and absorbed all of the Jews from Arab countries who wished to become Israelis. Why haven’t any Arab countries offered to resettle Arabs who were displaced from Israel, leaving them to rot for 60 years in squalid refugee camps? And why are those refugee camps still there? Could it be that the billions of dollars that the UNWRA has sent there goes to terrorist groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, El Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, or Hezbollah? How did Yassir Arafat achieve his $300 million in wealth? Why aren’t these funds distributed for humanitarian use?
6. Did you know that the Arabs in the disputed territories (conquered by Israel in the 1967 war which was started by Arabs) and who are not Israelis already have two countries right now? And that they are called Egypt and Jordan?
7. If your complaint is about the security fence which Israel is finally building in the Disputed Territories, are you aware that it is built solely to keep the “brave” Arab terrorists out so that they can no longer self detonate on busses, in dining halls or pizzerias and kill Jewish grandmothers and schoolchildren? Why are the Arabs so brave when they target unarmed civilians but even when they outnumber their opponents they get their sandy asses kicked all the way to Mecca when they are faced with Jewish soldiers? Why do Arab soldiers make the French look like super heroes?
8. Please explain why you are so concerned about Arabs, who possess 99% of the land in this region and are in control of the world’s greatest natural resource, which literally flows out of the ground? Can’t their brother muslims offer some of the surplus land and nature’s riches to the “Palestinians”? Or is it true that Arabs are willing to die right down to the last “Palestinian”?
9. Why do you not exhibit the same level of concern for say, people in Saudi Arabia who are beheaded, subject to amputation, stoning, honor killing etc.? What about women who are denied any semblance of basic civil rights, including the right not to be treated as property for the entertainment and abuse of her father, brothers, or husbands? What about the Muslims in Sudan and Egypt who are still enslaved, or the women there whose genitalia are barbarically cut off? How about the oppression of Shiites by Sunnis, the gassing of the Kurds by Iraq, or the massacre of “Palestinians” by Jordan (Black September)? Why doesn’t this concern you?
10. Did you ever stop to wonder how much better off everyone in the region would be if Arabs stopped trying to kill Jews and destroy Israel? What would happen if the Israelis gave up their weapons and disarmed? Would they live to see the next day? But what would happen if the Arabs completely disarmed? You know the answer: They would all be AT PEACE! And if there is no war to rile them up, the Arabs would be forced to look at their own repressive, pre-medieval societies. Why would they want to do that when there are Jews to kill?
11. Have you heard “People who define themselves primarily by what they hate, rather than who they love, are doomed to failure and misery”? Can you see the parallels to the Arabs, who are blessed with land and oil, but still gladly train their children to kill themselves in order to kill Jews? Have you heard Golda Meir’s words to the effect of “There will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours”? Why do the Arabs hate so much?
In the past few days you have been saying how much you want to murder millions of innocent citizens for the sake of those who carried out those disguting muders.,/em>
I am not calling for the murder of millions of innocent citizens. I am calling for the capture/execution of a few thousand guilty murderers. I don't everyone in Iraq killed. Just the murdering monsters who live in Fallujah, and the rest of the so-called suni-triangle.
You must understand that this is so called "war on terror", is not a war in the old meaning of the word. This war can only be won by knowing when an incident will happen and stopping it.
You are right that it's not a war in the traditional sense. But knowing when every incident will happen and then stopping all of them are just not possible. Yes, we can use intel to stop a lot, maybe even most of them. But stopping all of them is not possible. That's why you in fact CAN'T win the war this way. That's only a part of it. You have to pro-actively hunt these people down and remove their ability to wage terrorism.
In this so called war, it is important to understand terrorists and what motivates them and ensuring that our activities do not serve as recruitments agents. Isreal and Iraq moivated these people.
Why is understanding their motives important? I don't care what their motives are, they want to kill me. That's the bottom line. We should not have to live our lives walking on eggshells because we might "offend" somebody. THERE IS NO JUSTIFIABLE MOTIVE FOR TERRORISM!!!! The only way Israel has motivated anyone is by existing. The Arabs want nothing more from Israel than to push them into the sea. Period.
Well my friend, that concludes another most enjoyable debate. Read, enjoy, and reply if you like. I hope you do. I enjoy debating with those whose opinions differ greatly form my own. I do thank you for presenting your arguments in a calm, polite, and rational manner..even if they are wrong ;-)(jk).
Sorry about the delay.
Hey, no problem. I forgive ya. I'm sure all the fans of Freedom Nation do too.
Lets go back to the spanish election. You said that "Polls showed that about 75% (if this is even accurate) of the Spanish people were against the war, yet the socialists only won by about 5%....that doesn't make any sense". I am not sure I understand what you are saying here. But in Europe, citizens are not as divided as people in America.
Most parties belive in the same concepts.
My point was (I should also mention that prior to the bombings in Spain the conservative party held a significant advantage in the polls) that this bombing was the definitive reason for the people electing the socialist party. I still don't understand your point about the people being lied to though. It didn't take long to figure out it wasn't the Spanish terrorist group, and the incumbent government did not try to cover up that fact. The Spanish people capitulated, it's as simple as that. And it didn't even work as Al Queda has announced that Spanish civilians are on the "ok to kill list". So now they have an ultra socialist government who most likely won't do squat to protect it's people, other than to try and appease the terrorists.
All parties want high public healthcare, good schools, social welfare payments that are high enough to live a upon and a society that is fair and equal. Therefore, it is common and normal for people to change their preference on the day of election. An issue such as lying to the citizens for two days before the election could easily swing the voters.
First of all, as an evil cold-hearted capitalist, I'm going to say that I don't see how this is a good thing in any way shape or form. But since it is a point you brought up, here we go. It has proven time and again that socialized healthcare is no better than the American way. In fact, in most cases health care is worse. You can argue, "Well at least they have health coverage". Well let me tell ya. I am married with three children. I have absolutely no health insurance for any of us. You know what happens if we get hurt? We go to the hospital, fill out some paperwork, sometimes pay a little as a "down payment", then we get treated. Actually, we usually get treated while another of us (my wife or myself) takes care of the administrative part. Then after a couple weeks, the hospital sends us a bill, and we pay it. Now, sometimes we can't pay it all at once, but ya know what? They're usually ecstatic that someone is actually going to pay their bill that they are more than happy to work out a payment schedule. As for people changing their minds the day of the election, well to me that's just sad. It's like a scene out of Julias Ceaser (remember Marc Anthony's speech "Friends, Romans, Countrymen..."). What you're saying is that the people there are ready to change their minds based what crap the last "speaker" tells them. It also tells me the people there don't pay any attention to politics until the election actually happens. Then they just go with whomever sounds better the day before.
On the Isreali issue. Before the foundation of the Isreali state, there were Palestinians living there under the protection of the british. Mosts jews had left the country itself and were scattered throughout Europe. But after the second world war they came back to the Isreal and displaced Arabs who previously lived there. That cannot be right.
In your article, you say that the UN gave the land to the isrealis. Here you accept the authority of the UN. Ever since the security council has issued resolutions asking for the isreali army to move back to the borders of 1948. They have not.
This is an example of the damage done by the isrealis. They came along and burnt down the land of the palestinians. On this land they farmed and grow crops. In palestine farming is the only real source of wealth. Therefore those displaced lost not only their land but their sources of income.
These people have no future and no hope in present circumstances. No wonder they strap bombs to themselves and blow themsevles on a bus.
You have one thing right. There was nobody there on the land except displaced arabs. And just how were they being "protected" by the British? You say I am excepting the authority of the UN. I'm not, I'm excepting the fact that Israel has fought hard to be the country they are today ( arguably on of the most powerful in that part of the world) and took a barren piece of land and made a life there. When did they burn the land of the Pal-ass-wipians? If I remember right it was the other way around. You also never responded to my point that the displaced Arabs believe that even if Israel capitulates to ALL of their demands that about 90% of them still believe jihaad should be waged. And that they were already offered virtually 98% of what they wanted and threw it back in Israels' face. Like I said, they exist but for the good graces of Israel, who is completely capable of wiping every one of them out of existance without breaking a sweat. A few points to think about on this issue:
1. Are you aware that the Disputed Territories never belonged to the “Palestinians” and only came into Israeli possession as a result of the 1967 six day war in which Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon all massed forces at Israel’s border in order to “push the Jews into the sea”. The Arabs lost and Israel took control of the land. Do you agree that if the Koranimals don’t want to lose territory to Israel, then they shouldn’t start wars? Do you agree that there is justice that Israel, who as far back as 1948 has always sought peace with her far larger neighbors, should live in prosperity - making the desert bloom - while the residents of 19 adjacent Arab countries who are blessed with far more land as well as oil wealth live in their own feces?
2. Did you know that the “Palestinians” could have had their own country as far back as 1948 had they accepted the UN sponsored partition plan which gave Israel AND the Palestinians a countries of their own on land which Jews had lived on for thousands of years before Mohammed ever had a wet dream about virgins? The Arabs rejected the UN offer and went to war with the infant Israeli nation. The Arabs lost and have been whining about it ever since. Do you agree this is like a murderer who kills his parents and asks for special treatment since he is now an orphan?
3. Can you tell us ANY Arab country which offers Jews the right to be citizens, vote, own property, businesses, be a part of the government or have ANY of the rights which Israeli Arabs enjoy? Any Arab country which gives those rights to Christians? How about to other Arabs? Wouldn’t you just LOVE to be a citizen of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, or Syria?
4. Since as many Jews (approximately 850,000) were kicked out of Arab countries as were Arabs who left present day Israel (despite being literally begged to stay), why should Arabs be permitted to return to Israel if Jews aren’t allowed to set foot in Arab countries? Can you explain why Arabs can worship freely in Israel but Jews would certainly be hung from street lamps after having their intestines devoured by an Arab mob if they so much as entered an Arab country?
5. Israel resettled and absorbed all of the Jews from Arab countries who wished to become Israelis. Why haven’t any Arab countries offered to resettle Arabs who were displaced from Israel, leaving them to rot for 60 years in squalid refugee camps? And why are those refugee camps still there? Could it be that the billions of dollars that the UNWRA has sent there goes to terrorist groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, El Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, or Hezbollah? How did Yassir Arafat achieve his $300 million in wealth? Why aren’t these funds distributed for humanitarian use?
6. Did you know that the Arabs in the disputed territories (conquered by Israel in the 1967 war which was started by Arabs) and who are not Israelis already have two countries right now? And that they are called Egypt and Jordan?
7. If your complaint is about the security fence which Israel is finally building in the Disputed Territories, are you aware that it is built solely to keep the “brave” Arab terrorists out so that they can no longer self detonate on busses, in dining halls or pizzerias and kill Jewish grandmothers and schoolchildren? Why are the Arabs so brave when they target unarmed civilians but even when they outnumber their opponents they get their sandy asses kicked all the way to Mecca when they are faced with Jewish soldiers? Why do Arab soldiers make the French look like super heroes?
8. Please explain why you are so concerned about Arabs, who possess 99% of the land in this region and are in control of the world’s greatest natural resource, which literally flows out of the ground? Can’t their brother muslims offer some of the surplus land and nature’s riches to the “Palestinians”? Or is it true that Arabs are willing to die right down to the last “Palestinian”?
9. Why do you not exhibit the same level of concern for say, people in Saudi Arabia who are beheaded, subject to amputation, stoning, honor killing etc.? What about women who are denied any semblance of basic civil rights, including the right not to be treated as property for the entertainment and abuse of her father, brothers, or husbands? What about the Muslims in Sudan and Egypt who are still enslaved, or the women there whose genitalia are barbarically cut off? How about the oppression of Shiites by Sunnis, the gassing of the Kurds by Iraq, or the massacre of “Palestinians” by Jordan (Black September)? Why doesn’t this concern you?
10. Did you ever stop to wonder how much better off everyone in the region would be if Arabs stopped trying to kill Jews and destroy Israel? What would happen if the Israelis gave up their weapons and disarmed? Would they live to see the next day? But what would happen if the Arabs completely disarmed? You know the answer: They would all be AT PEACE! And if there is no war to rile them up, the Arabs would be forced to look at their own repressive, pre-medieval societies. Why would they want to do that when there are Jews to kill?
11. Have you heard “People who define themselves primarily by what they hate, rather than who they love, are doomed to failure and misery”? Can you see the parallels to the Arabs, who are blessed with land and oil, but still gladly train their children to kill themselves in order to kill Jews? Have you heard Golda Meir’s words to the effect of “There will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours”? Why do the Arabs hate so much?
In the past few days you have been saying how much you want to murder millions of innocent citizens for the sake of those who carried out those disguting muders.,/em>
I am not calling for the murder of millions of innocent citizens. I am calling for the capture/execution of a few thousand guilty murderers. I don't everyone in Iraq killed. Just the murdering monsters who live in Fallujah, and the rest of the so-called suni-triangle.
You must understand that this is so called "war on terror", is not a war in the old meaning of the word. This war can only be won by knowing when an incident will happen and stopping it.
You are right that it's not a war in the traditional sense. But knowing when every incident will happen and then stopping all of them are just not possible. Yes, we can use intel to stop a lot, maybe even most of them. But stopping all of them is not possible. That's why you in fact CAN'T win the war this way. That's only a part of it. You have to pro-actively hunt these people down and remove their ability to wage terrorism.
In this so called war, it is important to understand terrorists and what motivates them and ensuring that our activities do not serve as recruitments agents. Isreal and Iraq moivated these people.
Why is understanding their motives important? I don't care what their motives are, they want to kill me. That's the bottom line. We should not have to live our lives walking on eggshells because we might "offend" somebody. THERE IS NO JUSTIFIABLE MOTIVE FOR TERRORISM!!!! The only way Israel has motivated anyone is by existing. The Arabs want nothing more from Israel than to push them into the sea. Period.
Well my friend, that concludes another most enjoyable debate. Read, enjoy, and reply if you like. I hope you do. I enjoy debating with those whose opinions differ greatly form my own. I do thank you for presenting your arguments in a calm, polite, and rational manner..even if they are wrong ;-)(jk).
posted by Unknown at
5:40 PM
<< Home